Are liberal values inherent in atheism?

[Lance]

John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an atheist must adopt. In picking liberal morals Gray thinks atheists are actually drawing on Jewish and Christian traditions.


See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

[Abhidevananda]

Post by Lance
John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be
moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an
atheist must adopt...
See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

Looking through that long, meandering, and somewhat confusing article
for something that would justify such an assertion, I found a quote
that says something a bit different but with similar issues in the
second part.
______________________________________________________________________
The reason Nietzsche has been excluded from the mainstream of
contemporary atheist thinking is that he exposed the problem atheism
has with morality. It's not that atheists can't be moral – the subject
of so many mawkish debates. The question is which morality an atheist
should serve.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note that nowhere in that quotation does Gray say that there is "no
doubt that atheists can be moral". Rather, the implication - at least
for me - is that there is considerable doubt. What Gray (or Nietzsche)
seems to be suggesting is that before we could even consider such a
question intelligently, we would have to pinpoint a single, widely
accepted set of moral principles. And that has not been done for our
global society, because there is no consensus (which is not to say
that there could not be consensus in future or that such a universal
set of moral principles does not or could not exist). In other words,
in the absence of a single, widely accepted set of moral principles,
what meaning does it have to say that anyone - theist, atheist, or
agnostic - is moral?

I would like to be charitable about this article. It does tend to be
thought-provoking, and it provides some interesting information. But
the article strikes me as unfocused; and over the course of the
article, Gray often seems to exhibit the very qualities that he
criticizes... which, I suppose, makes sense, because Gray is himself
an atheist.

[Dave Smith]

Post by Lance
John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an atheist must adopt. In picking liberal morals Gray thinks atheists are actually drawing on Jewish and Christian traditions.
See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

An enjoyable article, thanks, full of interesting points and comments. His remarks are more about "21st century atheist missionaries" like Sam Harris, than about the non-evangelical kind. IIRC, in a previous book he argued that secular humanism rather than atheism draws on Christian values, and it seems to me that that more specific observation is more accurate. As he remarks in this article, atheism concerns unbelief rather than belief, and could be coupled with a variety of moral positions. He notes that belief in religion, even if erroneous, might be an evolutionary adaptation, and it isn't clear that it is a declining force across the world.

Dave

[M Winther]

Post by Lance
John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be
moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an atheist
must adopt. In picking liberal morals Gray thinks atheists are
actually drawing on Jewish and Christian traditions.
See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

In fact, in his recent book, "Alpha God: The Psychology of Religious
Violence and Oppression", Hector A. Garcia shows that religion has a
biological foundation and that it builds on primitive models of genetic
propagation. The Alpha God is based on the ancestral alpha ape who
establishes sexual dominion. Highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Alpha-God-Psychology-Religious-Oppression/dp/1633880206

M. Winther
http://www.two-paths.com

[M Winther]

Post by M Winther

Post by Lance
John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be
moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an atheist
must adopt. In picking liberal morals Gray thinks atheists are
actually drawing on Jewish and Christian traditions.
See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

In fact, in his recent book, "Alpha God: The Psychology of Religious
Violence and Oppression", Hector A. Garcia shows that religion has a
biological foundation and that it builds on primitive models of genetic
propagation. The Alpha God is based on the ancestral alpha ape who
establishes sexual dominion. Highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Alpha-God-Psychology-Religious-Oppression/dp/1633880206
M. Winther
http://www.two-paths.com

After having read half the book, I find his theses overly simplistic. It
is similar to Freud's "Moses and Monotheism", building on an archaic
past when the alpha male had recourse to all the women and precedence to
the food. But such an order has never existed in homo sapiens or homo
erectus. In fact, in the human hunter-gatherer societies people are busy
collecting food, and they are typically monogamous. Garcia says that
Adam and Eve evoked the alpha God's rage when they stole his food.
Supposedly, the myth is an instinctual residue, which pictures the
archaic alpha male's defensiveness about food resources. But this is a
naive interpretation. It is really a myth of the acquirement of ego
consciousness, which is a divine resource. Yet, conscious advancement
caused us to be thrown out of original childlike wholeness. To be God's
child is a blissful experience; so the rise of consciousness is
portrayed as a sin. But as St Augustine says, it is really a felix
culpa.

M. Winther

[M Winther]

Post by M Winther

Post by Lance
John Gray argues that whilst there is no doubt that atheists can be
moral there is a big question about what kind of morality an atheist
must adopt. In picking liberal morals Gray thinks atheists are
actually drawing on Jewish and Christian traditions.
See
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

In fact, in his recent book, "Alpha God: The Psychology of Religious
Violence and Oppression", Hector A. Garcia shows that religion has a
biological foundation and that it builds on primitive models of genetic
propagation. The Alpha God is based on the ancestral alpha ape who
establishes sexual dominion. Highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Alpha-God-Psychology-Religious-Oppression/dp/1633880206
M. Winther
http://www.two-paths.com
After having read half the book, I find his theses overly simplistic. It

is similar to Freud's "Moses and Monotheism", building on an archaic
past when the alpha male had recourse to all the women and precedence to
the food. But such an order has never existed in homo sapiens or homo
erectus. In fact, in the human hunter-gatherer societies people are busy
collecting food, and they are typically monogamous. Garcia says that
Adam and Eve evoked the alpha God's rage when they stole his food.
Supposedly, the myth is an instinctual residue, which pictures the
archaic alpha male's defensiveness about food resources. But this is a
naive interpretation. It is really a myth of the acquirement of ego
consciousness, which is a divine resource. Yet, conscious advancement
caused us to be thrown out of original childlike wholeness. To be God's
child is a blissful experience; so the rise of consciousness is
portrayed as a sin. But as St Augustine says, it is really a felix
culpa.

M. Winther

Correction: not "Moses and Monotheism" but "Totem and Taboo" (ch.4) is the
relevant book.

Mats